Seeking Hardware Advice... (low budget)

[rockandroller]

OK, I have a couple of D-link DCS-4602EV cameras on order (because they are the only available "tough" dome cameras in our price range) - and plan to pick up five more 'less rugged' cameras that will be placed out of reach of vandals.

These are "HD" IP cameras, (PoE) and I plan to use the two of them by our front doors at 10FPS.
Probably don't need their full 1920 resolution, maybe they'll be fine at something like 1024.
The other five cameras also should be fine at the same resolution, probably black and white, and I'm sure that 10 FPS is sufficient.

Looking at the D-link Windows software, they are recommending at least an 3GHz i7 processor for best results with that kind of load.

Anyone here have similar rigs of 6-8 channels that run well with ZoneMinder? If you do, I'd be interested in hearing what kind of hardware you use.
I've been thinking of a low-end quad-xeon (Lenovo TS140 or similar) server because I want to make sure we have RAID for the storage.

I usually use CentOS, but am open to using whatever linux distro works best "out of the box" with ZoneMinder...

[bbunge]

If you are going to run just two cameras about any old Pentium or better would work. I've tested a single core Pentium 3 GHZ and had three USB cams on it quite well with Ubuntu server. Core 2 Duo with 4 GIG RAM would be better. Find something second hand and try it! Might be surprised!

[knight-of-ni]

Zoneminder works well out of the box with CentOS. See the Wiki for instructions on how to enable zmrepo.
In the security surveillance world, resolution is more important than frame rate.
Recommend your drop the frame rate to ~5fps and go full resolution.

That TS140 work fine with just a couple of cameras at HD resolution and 5fps, but if you are future proofing your system for 6-8 cameras, you might want to look for something with more cores.

Not sure where you plan to get that TS140 from or how much you plan to pay for it. You can get some seriously good off-lease server hardware on ebay for a fraction of the original sale price. Just $300 or so can get a decent 8 core Xeon with a ton of ram.

[rockandroller]

Thanks very much for the tips. I was shying away from buying used rack servers - was mulling buying a new TS-140, and that is ~600 bux (4G ram, no drives) here in Canada. However, we do have 14 year old rack servers still going strong, so probably there is no harm in dumping a couple hundred bucks into something a little less ancient, and hoping to get another 4 or 5 years out of it. Those "ready-made" video surveillance appliances cost plenty, and only have a year or two warranty, anyway (and few of them even offer RAID 1).

Assuming a 2Ghz+ 8-core xeon rig, do ya think that 8 gigs of RAM would be sufficient?

[bbunge]

More than enough... I'm running 17 IP cams on a Dell Optiplex 780 Quad with 10 GIG of RAM and a 2 TB drive. The system is not stressed at all and I'm sure I could go back to a dual core PC and not suffer performance loss.

My recommendation would be to use a desktop vs. a server as a desktop will not be as noisy and will use less power than a server.

[rockandroller]

Can anyone recommend a "moderately vintage" server that can run CentOS 7?
I've been looking at some nicely-priced DL380 G5s but in Red Hat 7 has dropped support for all their HP SmartArray RAID controllers

So effectively a DL380 G5 is only good til 2020 when CentOS 6 expires...

Or maybe there's slightly longer-term support with another linux distro?

I do appreciate that rack servers are noisy power-hogs, but I don't see a lot of dual-CPU-quad-xeon desktop machines selling for peanuts

[knight-of-ni]

Bbunge is very talented at squeezing out every last ounce of performance from the hardware he is using, but what isn't directly obvious is that he is running his cameras at just a few frames per second (which is perfectly normal). So technically yes, it is possible to run 8 cameras on a quad core processor, and no other applications.

However, forum experience tells me that:
a) Many don't (want to) understand why high frame rates are just wasting hardware resources and proceed with higher frame rates anyway.
b) Many will neglect to state that, oh by the way, they were planning on using said server for other purposes.

Taking those unknowns into account, adding in some future proofing, and knowing the low price of off-lease servers on E-Bay.... if your budget is just a few hundred dollars than you will get the best bang for your buck with something that has at least 8 cores and 16GB ram.

The Proliant DL380 is one of my personal favorites. However, they moved to 2.5 inch drives beginning with G5, so unless you've got a source of cheap 2.5 SAS drives around, I would avoid the Proliants when on a budget. Also, I wouldn't get anything older than a G5 because they don't have hardware virtualization (you didn't say you needed this, but it is so popular these days you might was well get something that supports it).

I've bought several 1u and 2u servers from EBay seller Garlandcomputer over the years and have never been disappointed. Each server has arrived well packaged and in very clean condition. It was tough to tell the machines were used.

The server I am currently using as my primary is shown below. It's a Supermicro with twelve 3GHz cores (24 with HT), 24GB ram, and Twelve 3.5 drive slots, all for the price of $459.99! Can't beat that.

Here is the same chassis on sale right now for just $325:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Supermicro-2U-S ... SwrklVJ~UE

It has less ram and a weaker cpu than the one I bought, but it will work nicely for your purposes.

If you want to go as cheap as possible, and can tolerate the higher fan speed (noise) of a 1u server, this will run you ~$175 after shipping:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Supermicro-1U-S ... SwPhdVR9v8

To see the whole list of servers from this seller go here:
http://www.ebay.com/sch/m.html?_odkw=%2 ... r&_sacat=0

By now, you may have noticed that none of these servers come with drives, but that brings me to the final topic, ZFS.

ZFS seems to be all the rage these days, superseding the need for hardware raid controllers. When using ZFS, you actually want to export your drives as JBOD in the raid controller. At the cost of added complexity, ZFS has many advantages, one of them being compatibility with any standard, desktop-grade, hard drive. This is perfect for home users, who might have have extra WD Green or Blue drives lying around.

I haven't even scratched the surface of what ZFS can do.

Indeed, this is what I am currently running on my home server. CentOS 7 + ZFS + ZoneMinder with a combination of 8 WD Blue and Green drives (My root filesystem is on separates drives in a standard mdraid 1). The filesystem is redundant, just like hardware RAID, so if I lose a drive I can easily swap in another.

To get started on ZFS go here:
http://zfsonlinux.org/

If you are unfaimilar, there will be a learning curve, but it is worth it.

[rockandroller]

Thanks very much for the detailed reply. ZFS looks very interesting!

I just bought a DL380 G5 as an experiment.
It comes with 12 gigs, and I have some extra server ram laying around that will fit it.

http://www.ebay.ca/itm/HP-ProLiant-DL38 ... 085344307?

A couple hundred bucks** with shipping, and no tax or duty since it's almost local.

**($200 Canadian is about 47 and a half cents US, nowadays).

[river100]

For anyone else looking for budget hardware, I'll second that on using used servers from ebay. I've bought quite a few from the Ebay seller, Garlandcomputer. The ones I like end up being sold by them, go figure.
As knnniggett has mentioned they have good product, at a good price. I usually get rack mount but have bought a few
dell work stations for zoneminder.
My home ZM is a supermicro 1U half length running 1.28.1 in a VM with 8 IP
cams. Paid 175.00 for it with 16 gb ram and 2 low power Quad Xeons.

[Pedulla]

Good call on the Garland Computer listings!

Hikvision is flooding the US market so good 3Mg pixel POE cameras are <$150, and they have dual stream for triggering the larger records.
I've been using the 2CD32XXF models with much success, as long as you don't get the chinese version (no label box).

[bbunge]

Well, you avoided calling me cheap! I would consider myself frugal as I do use a lot of second hand machines (writing this on a 2008 iMac I acquired and upgraded to OSX 10.11.2). I help out with a not-for-profit that accepts old PC's and electronics. We refurbish what we can and "sell" them to those who need a basic PC for the cost of the Windows license or for free if the person would like Linux. The rest we send to recycle. In the past nine years we have re-purposed almost 12,000 computers to about 38 countries and 34 states.

I must admin that our first Zoneminder setup was on a Dell rack server with five SCSI drives in a RAID5. Was running 32 BIT Ubuntu and ZM 1.25. Worked very well until I had a young man helping me blow out the dirt and he removed the SCSI drives and put them back in the wrong slots! So much for that RAID!!!

Bbunge is very talented at squeezing out every last ounce of performance from the hardware he is using, but what isn't directly obvious is that he is running his cameras at just a few frames per second (which is perfectly normal). So technically yes, it is possible to run 8 cameras on a quad core processor, and no other applications.

However, forum experience tells me that:
a) Many don't (want to) understand why high frame rates are just wasting hardware resources and proceed with higher frame rates anyway.
b) Many will neglect to state that, oh by the way, they were planning on using said server for other purposes.

Taking those unknowns into account, adding in some future proofing, and knowing the low price of off-lease servers on E-Bay.... if your budget is just a few hundred dollars than you will get the best bang for your buck with something that has at least 8 cores and 16GB ram.

The Proliant DL380 is one of my personal favorites. However, they moved to 2.5 inch drives beginning with G5, so unless you've got a source of cheap 2.5 SAS drives around, I would avoid the Proliants when on a budget. Also, I wouldn't get anything older than a G5 because they don't have hardware virtualization (you didn't say you needed this, but it is so popular these days you might was well get something that supports it).

I've bought several 1u and 2u servers from EBay seller Garlandcomputer over the years and have never been disappointed. Each server has arrived well packaged and in very clean condition. It was tough to tell the machines were used.

The server I am currently using as my primary is shown below. It's a Supermicro with twelve 3GHz cores (24 with HT), 24GB ram, and Twelve 3.5 drive slots, all for the price of $459.99! Can't beat that.

Here is the same chassis on sale right now for just $325:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Supermicro-2U-S ... SwrklVJ~UE

It has less ram and a weaker cpu than the one I bought, but it will work nicely for your purposes.

If you want to go as cheap as possible, and can tolerate the higher fan speed (noise) of a 1u server, this will run you ~$175 after shipping:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Supermicro-1U-S ... SwPhdVR9v8

To see the whole list of servers from this seller go here:
http://www.ebay.com/sch/m.html?_odkw=%2 ... r&_sacat=0

By now, you may have noticed that none of these servers come with drives, but that brings me to the final topic, ZFS.

ZFS seems to be all the rage these days, superseding the need for hardware raid controllers. When using ZFS, you actually want to export your drives as JBOD in the raid controller. At the cost of added complexity, ZFS has many advantages, one of them being compatibility with any standard, desktop-grade, hard drive. This is perfect for home users, who might have have extra WD Green or Blue drives lying around.

I haven't even scratched the surface of what ZFS can do.

Indeed, this is what I am currently running on my home server. CentOS 7 + ZFS + ZoneMinder with a combination of 8 WD Blue and Green drives (My root filesystem is on separates drives in a standard mdraid 1). The filesystem is redundant, just like hardware RAID, so if I lose a drive I can easily swap in another.

To get started on ZFS go here:
http://zfsonlinux.org/

If you are unfaimilar, there will be a learning curve, but it is worth it.

[AndyNY]

DL-380 G5 is an excellent choice. I ran an ISP up until last year on G4's running Debian, and had Zoneminder on one of them.

There is an issue with the PCI bus on the DL-380s though, a normal Bluecherry capture card didn't work. I contacted them about the difference, and they sold me the proper card. I still have the card, it is an 8 channel. If you (or anyone else) is interested in it let me know. I also have a 4 channel Bluecherry PCI (standard) card I can get rid of, I had to get PCI-e for my new server. Let me know.

[pcglue]

I've bought several 1u and 2u servers from EBay seller Garlandcomputer over the years and have never been disappointed. Each server has arrived well packaged and in very clean condition. It was tough to tell the machines were used.

The server I am currently using as my primary is shown below. It's a Supermicro with twelve 3GHz cores (24 with HT), 24GB ram, and Twelve 3.5 drive slots, all for the price of $459.99! Can't beat that.

I don't have experience with these type of server-rack servers before. Do they only take ECC DDR3 memory modules or can they use the same DDR3 memory modules as a regular desktop computer? Can you choose not to use RAID configuration on them? Thanks for any info.

[knight-of-ni]

No and yes.

The best way to find out answers to questions like that is to go to the website of the server motherboard manufacturer and read the manual. Yes, I just told you to read the manual because it's what I do before buying any server. You should too. I would not recommend using any memory or cpu that is not specifically documented as compatible with the motherboard in question.

You are probably better off just buying the server with sufficient cpu and memory in the first place. With the exception of the hard drives, trying to upgrade one of these can cost you more in time and dollars than just buying another off-lease server.

[pcglue]

No and yes.

The best way to find out answers to questions like that is to go to the website of the server motherboard manufacturer and read the manual.

Fair enough. Thanks. For the server you pointed out that you're currently using (Supermicro w/ twelve 3GHz cores), do you dedicate the entire server to ZoneMinder or do you run a hypervisor and create a VM for ZoneMinder?