can't get streaming images

[maniacul]

Greetings,

After checking up the web for a GPL surveilance software solution, I found this piece of software.
It great, I got it working on a test machine at my home with webcams and video capture devices as an installing exercise.

Now when I want to put the software at WORK in an production environment I have troubles with it.

The problem is that I can't get stream images at monitoring and event viewing.

Here's a short description of my system:
I'm using Slackware 10.2 on an 2.6.13 customized by me kernel (same as the working testing machine).
PIII730Mhz,256RAM,10GBHDD
- ZM 1.22.2
- MustekWcam300 USB webcam with spca5xx kernel module
ZM compiled with the following opts:
./configure --with-webdir=/var/www/htdocs/zm \
--with-cgidir=/var/www/cgi-bin \
--with-webuser=nobody \
--with-webdir=/var/www/htdocs \
--with-webgroup=nogroup \
--with-ffmpeg=/usr/local

compiled all the required perl modules & all the optionals on this machine (ffmpeg,mpeg_encode,cambozola):
root@cabinet:~# ls -la /var/www/htdocs/|grep cambo
-rw-r--r-- 1 nobody nogroup 62508 2006-02-19 19:35 cambozola-server.jar
-rw-r--r-- 1 nobody nogroup 42531 2006-02-19 19:35 cambozola.jar
root@cabinet:~# ls -la /var/www/cgi-bin/|grep zms
-rwxr-xr-x 2 nobody nogroup 1180215 2006-06-07 12:11 nph-zms*
-rwxr-xr-x 2 nobody nogroup 1180215 2006-06-07 12:11 zms*
...cambozola version 0.68

camera is set at 320x240 px in RGB24 mode and is working in xawtv on /dev/video1 (/dev/v4l/video1)

Modect mode in ZM is working and recording, but can't watch the events.
In combozola applet I get the following error:
NO MAIN CONTENT TYPE.

I've tried also with firefox and/or mozilla but I get no image at all.

I also tried increasing shmmax:
root@cabinet:~# cat /proc/sys/kernel/shmmax
134217728
root@cabinet:~# cat /proc/sys/kernel/shmall
134217728

but stil no results!
odd is that I get no errors in the log files, debugs....

I ran out of ideeas.
Please help me!

[jameswilson]

what is the camera/card

[maniacul]

camera is a USB MUSTEK Wcam300

finally, I got to the bottom of the problem and here i'm answering to my own quiestion:

the problem was with cambozola (I had 0.68 from the tarball)
I even tried with the version 0.68 compiled with ant but also no luck

After that I dowloaded 0.22 as the admin of this site said.
The streaming in Winxp/IE6 started to work BUT when I press the close button of the window with the streaming, all the browser windows closes (happens also with opera 8.51 in windows).
Unfortunately with firefox/netscape or opera under linux, streaming is not working (even with version 0.22).

I tried also with cambozola 0.50 (precompiled & compiled with ant on the local server), it happens exactly like version 0.22.

[jameswilson]

Im using cambozola 0.50-0209 with no problems

[maniacul]

here's a log of my java cracshing on my windows machine when I close the streaming window from ZM:

#
# An unexpected error has been detected by HotSpot Virtual Machine:
#
# EXCEPTION_ACCESS_VIOLATION (0xc0000005) at pc=0x7c918fea, pid=3788, tid=3704
#
# Java VM: Java HotSpot(TM) Client VM (1.5.0_06-b05 mixed mode)
# Problematic frame:
# C [ntdll.dll+0x18fea]
#

--------------- T H R E A D ---------------

Current thread (0x075a19c8): JavaThread "Thread-5" [_thread_in_native, id=3704]

siginfo: ExceptionCode=0xc0000005, writing address 0x00000010

Registers:
EAX=0x00000000, EBX=0x00000000, ECX=0x00000e88, EDX=0x01ffecc4
ESP=0x07e4f208, EBP=0x07e4f27c, ESI=0x01ffecb4, EDI=0x00000000
EIP=0x7c918fea, EFLAGS=0x00010246

Top of Stack: (sp=0x07e4f208)
0x07e4f208: 01fc21d0 00000000 00000000 00000000
0x07e4f218: 07e4f1d0 00000002 07e4fde4 00000000
0x07e4f228: 00000000 a21a1750 01c68a75 02013c20
0x07e4f238: 7c90e591 7c919079 00000e84 02373a48
0x07e4f248: 7c8092ac 7c90110a 02373ae8 02013d31
0x07e4f258: 02373ae8 07e4f320 00000000 07e4f314
0x07e4f268: 7c809bf5 00001c84 00000000 00000000
0x07e4f278: 00000e88 07e4f314 7c90104b 00ffecb4

Instructions: (pc=0x7c918fea)
0x7c918fda: 8b 46 10 3b c3 89 45 fc 0f 84 9e 00 00 00 8b 06
0x7c918fea: ff 40 10 8b 45 fc 83 e0 01 89 45 e8 8b 06 ff 40


Stack: [0x07d50000,0x07e50000), sp=0x07e4f208, free space=1020k
Native frames: (J=compiled Java code, j=interpreted, Vv=VM code, C=native code)
C [ntdll.dll+0x18fea]
C [ntdll.dll+0x104b]

Java frames: (J=compiled Java code, j=interpreted, Vv=VM code)
j java.net.SocketInputStream.socketRead0(Ljava/io/FileDescriptor;[BIII)I+0
j java.net.SocketInputStream.read([BII)I+84
j java.io.BufferedInputStream.fill()V+175
J java.io.BufferedInputStream.read()I
J com.charliemouse.cambozola.shared.StreamSplit.readToBoundary(Ljava/lang/String;)[B
j com.charliemouse.cambozola.shared.CamStream.run()V+643
v ~StubRoutines::call_stub

--------------- P R O C E S S ---------------

Java Threads: ( => current thread )
0x06af8e10 JavaThread "Thread-6" [_thread_blocked, id=2960]
0x06af8198 JavaThread "Image Fetcher 0" daemon [_thread_blocked, id=1088]
0x07594808 JavaThread "Image Fetcher 3" daemon [_thread_blocked, id=3832]
=>0x075a19c8 JavaThread "Thread-5" [_thread_in_native, id=3704]
0x07592848 JavaThread "AWT-EventQueue-2" [_thread_blocked, id=764]
0x0699e1c0 JavaThread "Keep-Alive-Timer" daemon [_thread_blocked, id=3864]
0x06af8730 JavaThread "thread applet-com.charliemouse.cambozola.Viewer" [_thread_in_vm, id=2416]
0x06994508 JavaThread "AWT-EventQueue-0" [_thread_blocked, id=900]
0x06974b78 JavaThread "traceMsgQueueThread" daemon [_thread_blocked, id=3160]
0x0696eaf8 JavaThread "AWT-Windows" daemon [_thread_in_native, id=452]
0x0696e6c0 JavaThread "AWT-Shutdown" [_thread_blocked, id=1436]
0x069674d0 JavaThread "Java2D Disposer" daemon [_thread_blocked, id=3460]
0x0329cdb8 JavaThread "Low Memory Detector" daemon [_thread_blocked, id=3964]
0x0329b848 JavaThread "CompilerThread0" daemon [_thread_blocked, id=3956]
0x0329abc8 JavaThread "Signal Dispatcher" daemon [_thread_blocked, id=628]
0x03292050 JavaThread "Finalizer" daemon [_thread_blocked, id=3200]
0x03290bd0 JavaThread "Reference Handler" daemon [_thread_blocked, id=3464]
0x031ca640 JavaThread "main" [_thread_blocked, id=3308]

Other Threads:
0x031c5c40 VMThread [id=3252]
0x0329df98 WatcherThread [id=872]

VM state:not at safepoint (normal execution)

VM Mutex/Monitor currently owned by a thread: None

Heap
def new generation total 576K, used 402K [0x100e0000, 0x10180000, 0x10840000)
eden space 512K, 78% used [0x100e0000, 0x10144990, 0x10160000)
from space 64K, 0% used [0x10160000, 0x10160000, 0x10170000)
to space 64K, 0% used [0x10170000, 0x10170000, 0x10180000)
tenured generation total 2132K, used 1278K [0x10840000, 0x10a55000, 0x160e0000)
the space 2132K, 59% used [0x10840000, 0x1097f8e8, 0x1097fa00, 0x10a55000)
compacting perm gen total 8192K, used 6166K [0x160e0000, 0x168e0000, 0x1a0e0000)
the space 8192K, 75% used [0x160e0000, 0x166e5b48, 0x166e5c00, 0x168e0000)
No shared spaces configured.

Dynamic libraries:
0x00400000 - 0x00419000 C:\Program Files\Internet Explorer\iexplore.exe
0x7c900000 - 0x7c9b0000 C:\WINDOWS\system32\ntdll.dll
0x7c800000 - 0x7c8f4000 C:\WINDOWS\system32\kernel32.dll
0x77c10000 - 0x77c68000 C:\WINDOWS\system32\msvcrt.dll
0x77d40000 - 0x77dd0000 C:\WINDOWS\system32\USER32.dll
0x77f10000 - 0x77f57000 C:\WINDOWS\system32\GDI32.dll
0x77f60000 - 0x77fd6000 C:\WINDOWS\system32\SHLWAPI.dll
0x77dd0000 - 0x77e6b000 C:\WINDOWS\system32\ADVAPI32.dll
0x77e70000 - 0x77f01000 C:\WINDOWS\system32\RPCRT4.dll
0x77760000 - 0x778cf000 C:\WINDOWS\system32\SHDOCVW.dll
0x77a80000 - 0x77b14000 C:\WINDOWS\system32\CRYPT32.dll
0x77b20000 - 0x77b32000 C:\WINDOWS\system32\MSASN1.dll
0x754d0000 - 0x75550000 C:\WINDOWS\system32\CRYPTUI.dll
0x76c30000 - 0x76c5e000 C:\WINDOWS\system32\WINTRUST.dll
0x76c90000 - 0x76cb8000 C:\WINDOWS\system32\IMAGEHLP.dll
0x77120000 - 0x771ac000 C:\WINDOWS\system32\OLEAUT32.dll
0x774e0000 - 0x7761d000 C:\WINDOWS\system32\ole32.dll
0x5b860000 - 0x5b8b4000 C:\WINDOWS\system32\NETAPI32.dll
0x771b0000 - 0x77259000 C:\WINDOWS\system32\WININET.dll
0x76f60000 - 0x76f8c000 C:\WINDOWS\system32\WLDAP32.dll
0x77c00000 - 0x77c08000 C:\WINDOWS\system32\VERSION.dll
0x76390000 - 0x763ad000 C:\WINDOWS\system32\IMM32.DLL
0x629c0000 - 0x629c9000 C:\WINDOWS\system32\LPK.DLL
0x74d90000 - 0x74dfb000 C:\WINDOWS\system32\USP10.dll
0x773d0000 - 0x774d2000 C:\WINDOWS\WinSxS\x86_Microsoft.Windows.Common-Controls_6595b64144ccf1df_6.0.2600.2180_x-ww_a84f1ff9\comctl32.dll
0x7c9c0000 - 0x7d1d5000 C:\WINDOWS\system32\SHELL32.dll
0x5d090000 - 0x5d127000 C:\WINDOWS\system32\comctl32.dll
0x5ad70000 - 0x5ada8000 C:\WINDOWS\system32\uxtheme.dll
0x10000000 - 0x100d5000 C:\WINDOWS\system32\nView.dll
0x76bf0000 - 0x76bfb000 C:\WINDOWS\system32\PSAPI.DLL
0x5edd0000 - 0x5ede7000 C:\WINDOWS\system32\OLEPRO32.DLL
0x73760000 - 0x737a9000 C:\WINDOWS\system32\DDRAW.dll
0x73bc0000 - 0x73bc6000 C:\WINDOWS\system32\DCIMAN32.dll
0x74720000 - 0x7476b000 C:\WINDOWS\system32\MSCTF.dll
0x75f80000 - 0x7607d000 C:\WINDOWS\system32\BROWSEUI.dll
0x20000000 - 0x20012000 C:\WINDOWS\system32\browselc.dll
0x77b40000 - 0x77b62000 C:\WINDOWS\system32\appHelp.dll
0x76fd0000 - 0x7704f000 C:\WINDOWS\system32\CLBCATQ.DLL
0x77050000 - 0x77115000 C:\WINDOWS\system32\COMRes.dll
0x755c0000 - 0x755ee000 C:\WINDOWS\system32\msctfime.ime
0x77260000 - 0x77300000 C:\WINDOWS\system32\urlmon.dll
0x77fe0000 - 0x77ff1000 C:\WINDOWS\system32\Secur32.dll
0x626b0000 - 0x626d6000 C:\WINDOWS\system32\AcSignIcon.dll
0x73000000 - 0x73026000 C:\WINDOWS\system32\WINSPOOL.DRV
0x74c80000 - 0x74cac000 C:\WINDOWS\system32\OLEACC.dll
0x76080000 - 0x760e5000 C:\WINDOWS\system32\MSVCP60.dll
0x77a20000 - 0x77a74000 C:\WINDOWS\System32\cscui.dll
0x76600000 - 0x7661d000 C:\WINDOWS\System32\CSCDLL.dll
0x77920000 - 0x77a13000 C:\WINDOWS\system32\SETUPAPI.dll
0x01120000 - 0x01144000 C:\Program Files\Adobe\Acrobat 6.0\Acrobat\AcroIEFavClient.dll
0x5f3e0000 - 0x5f3f2000 C:\Program Files\Adobe\Acrobat 6.0\Acrobat\ATL.DLL
0x011a0000 - 0x011ae000 C:\Program Files\MyWebSearch\SrchAstt\1.bin\MWSSRCAS.DLL
0x01200000 - 0x0120c000 C:\Program Files\Adobe\Acrobat 6.0\Acrobat\ActiveX\AcroIEHelper.dll
0x01210000 - 0x01258000 C:\Program Files\MyWebSearch\bar\1.bin\MWSBAR.DLL
0x76ee0000 - 0x76f1c000 C:\WINDOWS\system32\RASAPI32.DLL
0x76e90000 - 0x76ea2000 C:\WINDOWS\system32\rasman.dll
0x71ab0000 - 0x71ac7000 C:\WINDOWS\system32\WS2_32.dll
0x71aa0000 - 0x71aa8000 C:\WINDOWS\system32\WS2HELP.dll
0x76eb0000 - 0x76edf000 C:\WINDOWS\system32\TAPI32.dll
0x76e80000 - 0x76e8e000 C:\WINDOWS\system32\rtutils.dll
0x76b40000 - 0x76b6d000 C:\WINDOWS\system32\WINMM.dll
0x7dc30000 - 0x7df20000 C:\WINDOWS\system32\Mshtml.dll
0x746c0000 - 0x746e7000 C:\WINDOWS\system32\msls31.dll
0x71ad0000 - 0x71ad9000 C:\WINDOWS\system32\wsock32.dll
0x77c70000 - 0x77c93000 C:\WINDOWS\system32\msv1_0.dll
0x76d60000 - 0x76d79000 C:\WINDOWS\system32\iphlpapi.dll
0x722b0000 - 0x722b5000 C:\WINDOWS\system32\sensapi.dll
0x769c0000 - 0x76a73000 C:\WINDOWS\system32\USERENV.dll
0x0ffd0000 - 0x0fff8000 C:\WINDOWS\system32\rsaenh.dll
0x01960000 - 0x0197f000 C:\Program Files\MyWebSearch\bar\1.bin\F3HTMLMU.DLL
0x75e90000 - 0x75f40000 C:\WINDOWS\system32\SXS.DLL
0x019a0000 - 0x019bd000 C:\Program Files\MyWebSearch\bar\1.bin\F3POPSWT.DLL
0x6d600000 - 0x6d62d000 C:\Program Files\Java\jre1.5.0_06\bin\ssv.dll
0x01a30000 - 0x01cf5000 C:\WINDOWS\system32\xpsp2res.dll
0x01f00000 - 0x01f0a000 C:\PROGRA~1\MYWEBS~1\bar\1.bin\mwsoestb.dll
0x01f30000 - 0x01fb8000 C:\WINDOWS\system32\shdoclc.dll
0x75cf0000 - 0x75d81000 C:\WINDOWS\system32\mlang.dll
0x20b00000 - 0x20b45000 C:\WINDOWS\system32\imon.dll
0x77690000 - 0x776b1000 C:\WINDOWS\system32\NTMARTA.DLL
0x71bf0000 - 0x71c03000 C:\WINDOWS\system32\SAMLIB.dll
0x02010000 - 0x02025000 C:\Program Files\NetLimiter\nl_lsp.dll
0x02030000 - 0x02041000 C:\WINDOWS\system32\nl_msgc.dll
0x02790000 - 0x02a56000 C:\WINDOWS\system32\msi.dll
0x71a50000 - 0x71a8f000 C:\WINDOWS\system32\mswsock.dll
0x662b0000 - 0x66308000 C:\WINDOWS\system32\hnetcfg.dll
0x71a90000 - 0x71a98000 C:\WINDOWS\System32\wshtcpip.dll
0x746f0000 - 0x7471a000 C:\WINDOWS\System32\msimtf.dll
0x325c0000 - 0x325d2000 C:\Program Files\Microsoft Office\OFFICE11\msohev.dll
0x75c50000 - 0x75cbe000 c:\windows\system32\jscript.dll
0x76200000 - 0x76271000 C:\WINDOWS\System32\mshtmled.dll
0x72d20000 - 0x72d29000 C:\WINDOWS\system32\wdmaud.drv
0x72d10000 - 0x72d18000 C:\WINDOWS\system32\msacm32.drv
0x77be0000 - 0x77bf5000 C:\WINDOWS\system32\MSACM32.dll
0x77bd0000 - 0x77bd7000 C:\WINDOWS\system32\midimap.dll
0x71d40000 - 0x71d5c000 C:\WINDOWS\System32\actxprxy.dll
0x6d590000 - 0x6d5a2000 C:\Program Files\Java\jre1.5.0_06\bin\npjpi150_06.dll
0x6d400000 - 0x6d417000 C:\Program Files\Java\jre1.5.0_06\bin\jpiexp32.dll
0x76f20000 - 0x76f47000 C:\WINDOWS\system32\DNSAPI.dll
0x76fb0000 - 0x76fb8000 C:\WINDOWS\System32\winrnr.dll
0x751d0000 - 0x751ee000 C:\WINDOWS\system32\wshbth.dll
0x6d450000 - 0x6d468000 C:\Program Files\Java\jre1.5.0_06\bin\jpishare.dll
0x6d670000 - 0x6d804000 C:\PROGRA~1\Java\JRE15~1.0_0\bin\client\jvm.dll
0x6d280000 - 0x6d288000 C:\PROGRA~1\Java\JRE15~1.0_0\bin\hpi.dll
0x6d640000 - 0x6d64c000 C:\PROGRA~1\Java\JRE15~1.0_0\bin\verify.dll
0x6d300000 - 0x6d31d000 C:\PROGRA~1\Java\JRE15~1.0_0\bin\java.dll
0x6d660000 - 0x6d66f000 C:\PROGRA~1\Java\JRE15~1.0_0\bin\zip.dll
0x6d000000 - 0x6d167000 C:\Program Files\Java\jre1.5.0_06\bin\awt.dll
0x73940000 - 0x73a10000 C:\WINDOWS\system32\D3DIM700.DLL
0x6d240000 - 0x6d27d000 C:\Program Files\Java\jre1.5.0_06\bin\fontmanager.dll
0x6d1f0000 - 0x6d203000 C:\Program Files\Java\jre1.5.0_06\bin\deploy.dll
0x6d5d0000 - 0x6d5ef000 C:\Program Files\Java\jre1.5.0_06\bin\RegUtils.dll
0x6d3e0000 - 0x6d3f5000 C:\Program Files\Java\jre1.5.0_06\bin\jpicom32.dll
0x07240000 - 0x07247000 C:\WINDOWS\system32\xpsp3res.dll
0x6d4c0000 - 0x6d4d3000 C:\Program Files\Java\jre1.5.0_06\bin\net.dll
0x6d4e0000 - 0x6d4e9000 C:\Program Files\Java\jre1.5.0_06\bin\nio.dll
0x6d3c0000 - 0x6d3df000 C:\Program Files\Java\jre1.5.0_06\bin\jpeg.dll

VM Arguments:
jvm_args: -Xbootclasspath/a:C:\PROGRA~1\Java\JRE15~1.0_0\lib\deploy.jar;C:\PROGRA~1\Java\JRE15~1.0_0\lib\plugin.jar -Xmx96m -Djavaplugin.maxHeapSize=96m -Xverify:remote -Djavaplugin.version=1.5.0_06 -Djavaplugin.nodotversion=150_06 -Dbrowser=sun.plugin -DtrustProxy=true -Dapplication.home=C:\PROGRA~1\Java\JRE15~1.0_0 -Djava.protocol.handler.pkgs=sun.plugin.net.protocol -Djavaplugin.vm.options=-Djava.class.path=C:\PROGRA~1\Java\JRE15~1.0_0\classes -Xbootclasspath/a:C:\PROGRA~1\Java\JRE15~1.0_0\lib\deploy.jar;C:\PROGRA~1\Java\JRE15~1.0_0\lib\plugin.jar -Xmx96m -Djavaplugin.maxHeapSize=96m -Xverify:remote -Djavaplugin.version=1.5.0_06 -Djavaplugin.nodotversion=150_06 -Dbrowser=sun.plugin -DtrustProxy=true -Dapplication.home=C:\PROGRA~1\Java\JRE15~1.0_0 -Djava.protocol.handler.pkgs=sun.plugin.net.protocol vfprintf
java_command: <unknown>
Launcher Type: generic

Environment Variables:
PATH=C:\PROGRA~1\Java\JRE15~1.0_0\bin;C:\Program Files\Internet Explorer;;C:\WINDOWS\system32;C:\WINDOWS;C:\WINDOWS\System32\Wbem;C:\Program Files\NMapWin\\bin;C:\Program Files\Common Files\Ulead Systems\MPEG;C:\Program Files\Common Files\Autodesk Shared\;C:\Program Files\OpenVPN\bin;.
USERNAME=maniacul
OS=Windows_NT
PROCESSOR_IDENTIFIER=x86 Family 6 Model 9 Stepping 5, GenuineIntel



--------------- S Y S T E M ---------------

OS: Windows XP Build 2600 Service Pack 2

CPU:total 1 family 6, cmov, cx8, fxsr, mmx, sse, sse2

Memory: 4k page, physical 523568k(79628k free), swap 1277808k(813420k free)

vm_info: Java HotSpot(TM) Client VM (1.5.0_06-b05) for windows-x86, built on Nov 10 2005 11:12:14 by "java_re" with MS VC++ 6.0

[jameswilson]

I use the sun java vm maybe you could try that?

[maniacul]

will try!!!!

but what about linux clients?

[jameswilson]

linux clients will use firefox and tat doesnt need cambozola to stream mpjpegs

[maniacul]

i read alot about firefox doesn't need cambozola plugin, but now with cambozola 0.50 i get streaming images in winxp/IE but i don't under firefox

any ideas?

[jameswilson]

firefox can rad mjpeg streams nativly, the cambozola thing is just a jave app hat allows ie to view the same stream. I find it strange that firefox wont work, I assume you are set to jpeg stream and using new firefox on windows?

[maniacul]

wit windows it's clear now, using IE and cambozola 0.5 works fine

actually i'm using firefox (1.0.6) that came under slackware 10.2
i'd like to monitor the location from wherever i might be, independent of the browser and/or system

situation is like tis:
i staretd to learn on my home testing machine how to install ZM, that machine it fine, i can watch streams from every platform, every browser

it's the machine in production that I have problems with (the box described above)

the ZM & other needed servers (mysql & apache) are on the same box, and i'm also trying to see the live streams from the same box

any ideeas?!?

ZM is configured as jpeg stream with automatic detection of browser streaming capability, cambozola package installed and option checked

[jameswilson]

i use 1.0.5 fire fox and havnt upgraded i dont think, but it should work cross platform, whats in the syslog when trying to view stream from firefox

[maniacul]

well, i wouldn't downgrade to firefox 1.0.5 if 1.0.6 came with slack 10.2 and is working with another ZM server

i'm tailing /var/log/messages,syslog & debug; zmdc.log, zm_debug.log all the time but i don't see anything that leads me to the problem

i don't know where firefox writes it's logfiles
I even tried to look at the JavaScript Console but i got no output there whatsoever

[jameswilson]

i wouldnt downgrade either. Are you using firefox on the server machine? If so are you sure its firefox and not konq or another browser?

[maniacul]

yes, i'm using firefox on the server box trying to look at the box's ZM

I tried also with konq, opera & netscape but no luck
PM me if you'd like to take a look for yourself (i'm logged on the machine for another 3 hors), availale Linux remote desktop sharing a.k.a. VNC

still don't get it why I can watch ZM streams from another server and not the local one
one mor thing ... I tried last night to watch streams from another linux box, doesn't work either