ZM 1.29.0 My Opinion review bugs quirks.

Forum for questions and support relating to the 1.29.x releases only.
Lost19
Posts: 6
Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2016 4:41 am

ZM 1.29.0 My Opinion review bugs quirks.

Post by Lost19 »

I write this because it took so long to actually get it to work. Normally my reminders are one paragraph so I don’t know what happened. I hope you make it to the end, especially with my literary skills yet alone whining.

I understand that this will get negative responses and I hope so for I hope I'm wrong but this here is my experience with zoneminder when I only have 4 basic requirements. Now these notes are generally for me, though this one got out of hand. As such, I do this to remind me over time why I do or don't use something or quirks to remember, and I actually hope the people behind ZM actually read this even though it may be considered total dribble by all.

There is sarcasm but take it in jest, I have to...

My basic requirements:
1. Motion detection record.
2. Record -10 seconds and +10 seconds or other before and after a motion record,
3. Display moving thumbnails of captures to select an action in an event that you are looking for, and save it or some other quick method. Montage of moving thumbnails.
4. Being an out mind out of site system until something goes wrong I don't want to re-learn everything when you need to review it. User friendly/intuitive.

• I noticed I mention thumbnails a bit below. Creating small medium quality moving thumbnail gifs shouldn't be that difficult.

ZM Installation.
• I tried several guides including the 'easy way guides and none worked, always some error that cost hours/days to achieve zero outcome.
• Tried install on ubuntu server - failed - My fault, only have Wifi Internet and was unable to set up wifi for upgrading and downloading.
• Tried install on ubuntu desktop - failed - errors - causing hours to achieve no outcome
Ubuntu Note: ubuntu server and desktop will not auto detect network or Wifi card, not worth the effort, this is an Ubuntu 15.10 bug, also selecting search on Desktop crashes Ubuntu. Mint and other flavours have no issue.
• Tried install on Mint desktop - failed - errors and again wasted hours for no outcome.
• Tried a couple of times on the above by restoring clean clones and starting again with no success. Cut and paste to console also same results, Matched Mint 17.2 to ubuntu base for guide to use, same result, errors.

Tried some more research and in the back of my mind there were no real user information just a lot of guides that didn't work and reviews done by what seemed non users. In one instance I came across an error with two posts I think, one from the attempting installer and the other from a responder, the responders comment was that the OP should not try to reinvent the wheel and should look at the link for the easy way install. I myself had tried the easy guides only to end up with errors. Now from my experience, so far with the above comments by posters it rings alarm bells that basically say. It's not worth the effort walk away. But I'm a masochist! I've wanted to try ZM for a year or so since it’s been around before 2005 I think. It must be good?

So after all the failed attempts above I finally came across lbuntu 14.04 with zoneminder 1.29.0 ISO and installed it.

1- It Lives.
FINALY, some life. Now all I have is an old USB camera that I will test before committing to cameras and the like.
Got the camera to work clicked on all the links and so forth read the manual and the like for some settings.
A. On the console my camera was green so I assumed it is working but how do I see it? Eventually if I click on my cameras name a pop up appears, eureka I have visual.
B. It also took a while to figure out that Cycle/Montage is camera related. Cycle threw me with a black screen. Cycle needs to display something ie; (No input) if it's on a camera with no input, say the cables cut, and or even better, the time the signal was lost. When I clicked on cycle I just get a blank screen for the first camera that is not available. I know that now, but can I manually move forward or do I just wait. I wait.
C. Considering everything is linked to something but Cycle is not? If cycling through cameras you should be able to stop it at that camera and or record for example or even scroll backwards and forwards to something that may have captured your eye..

2- Zones.
I figured out how to do it without time on searching.
A. Why multiple pops, Re use windows and put a back link and or quit link.
B. Presets - It always goes back to 'Choose Preset' - So how do you know what settings you used on existing zones?
C. Alarm colour - Really? Does anyone have a colour pallet in their back pocket? If you are going to use paint software conventions you could at least link a colour pallet to it. How about just a selection of 50 colours.
D. Not that I understand any of those settings but you can have two zones set up differently and yet most of those settings never change to correspond to the zone when it's selected. So what settings did I set for each zone?
E. Also, why not just a setting for 0 to 100% sensitivity as well as a live image rather than a still. This way you can live adjust a zone to compensate for tree shadows. I have branch that is swaying in the wind, occasionally appearing. It's not practical to set up in the current still image and preset set ups. I should also be able to click on button that says update and on the same window see if it's getting triggered under the new setting. Maybe I could but I'll be dead of old age in 40 years.


3 -Events –
So I have now about 50 events on the Console so I click on events...
A. I have 100 events? ok, so which is which, Events is the total number that's why I assume there is a day events total. Update: Running now for over 24 hours, Events 165 - Events Day - 164 - Events Week/Month 165 Events window 174? Ok, closed the pop up and its updated the console to 174 total but I'm still showing 173 events for the day. Day events actual 80. What gives? This seems to have rectified itself after several boots/It’s a dual boot system. Also applies to ‘B’
B. Suggestion: Between days in the events pop up have a coloured separator or each day/hour colour coded for quick reference. Even if I click on the 'Hour' I still gets the complete list numbering in the 10's of pages.
C. Figured out how to add thumbnails but what's the point they don't do anything it's a still image, click on it and you get a pop up of another still image that you can only cycle through frames? Average life span of a human being is 80 odd years.
D. Click on the event and you get a functioning image of sorts. You get an image then 'time to next event' and waiting, What for? The control buttons on the bottom, what for? Stream function is useless (morecord). It's only the montage of stills that give you anything useful.
E. So basically If I have 100 events and 99 of them triggered by artefacts there is no way I am ever going to find the actual one without wasting days on it. Those thumbnails should cycle through the event quickly so that you can catch the one you want.
F. Frame alarm, frames total score, avg score, max score. Who gives a *** spend more time making it useful. If somebody needs those things have them in a settings box on the top of the page. Who is ZM trying to impress.
G. View the time line? Still haven't figured that out, yet alone what it's supposed to do. Yep, hover the mouse, so? Still waiting? Maybe it works if you have a continuous recording?
H. The only way I managed to view a video of an event is by exporting an even then opening it in the browser. It doesn't help if you have to go through each event to find the one you want. I'm assuming I have to do this in on motion record due to events being short.
I. So I tried 'Record' instead of 'morecord' and it gives me one continuous recording so those controls on windows work. But how do you find an action in an event that is possibly days long? Granted they seem to be chopped up into 10 minute intervals but again find the action in the event in dozens of events.
J. Zoom, It loses track after about 4 clicks on the same spot, you also can’t traverse the image so you have to start again by un-zooming, Why not left mouse to select/lock a section of the image and scroll button to zoom in and out of that selection box. Right click to cancel all and return image to default. Try this, In Windows open up the magnifier from ‘Ease Of Access’ then Ctrl-Alt-L to set ‘Lens’ using say 300% and run it over the camera view. You can now magnify whatever section you want and traverse the whole view. Try it in Montage. Windows Key-Esc to cancel.


4 – Buffers Pre and Post Event
A. I need +10 seconds -10 seconds record or time. After searching all I found was that in the 'Buffers' Pre event and post event counts. Who knows this stuff? but wait, something about them being half the Image Buffer size??? But hang on 'Image Count' that's frames, if that's frames and my camera has varying fps then that Image count is useless for it's a constant variable?

Why not just simply have a setting for retain -10 seconds before and 10 seconds after an event. I don't even know what the other stuff is for.

B. I've been asked why: Well imagine you monitor your front yard and not the street to avoid false events. Someone parks in front of your house runs to your front door, steals a package and gets in the car. Those extra +/- 10 seconds may be enough to catch the number plate as well as the car type and colour.
C. I don't even want to look for the setting on how long to keep events or yet alone how much of the HDD to allocate. I don't think such a setting would even be in human legible form. How many binary bits expressed in octal would you like to allocate? Days to keep files, using ancient Egyptian calendar translated to Mayan as referenced by your horoscope. Yeah, I have seen through the filters dialogue and read the manual on it. How about, ZM detects 1TB HDD With 900GB Free- Space to allocate to ZM eg: 800GB. Days to keep files per camera eg: 7 days. Warn if 7 days quota cannot be met. Do not delete 'Archived' Files. Warn when Space allocated is eg: 90%. Simple, each camera will have 7 days history, Hdd max is 800GB archived files protected. You could even add email address and heading to send email to. Never have to think until I get one of those two warnings and simple to alter.

5 – Quirk ‘Low Bandwidth’
On the console it's always defaulting to low Bandwidth. I have a 1GB network avg speed 60MBs lbuntu/zm server to Mint Desktop > ZM Console in Firefox. Though it's a USB camera I can understand the low bandwidth but it doesn't make sense for that title seems to apply to the whole console? There is so much incomprehensible settings and other bits why not have zm place the bandwidth test for each camera next to each camera.
Example: (IP_camera_Garage_1 - Low B/W) something may be wrong with the network or Low for a USB camera might be normal, but Low for the whole console, what's it referencing?
Server and PC are a meter away, local ftp transfer average 60MB second, ZM on server Firefox 'High Bandwidth' PC Mint using Firefox 'Low Bandwidth’??? If 60 odd MBs is low what's like going over the Internet.

6- Pop ups
I'm in Montage, click on a camera, again those controls work but what are they for or do they only work for events > 20seconds? Anyway, I get a list of events, 142. So what's what, which is which, are they all artefact triggered, click on a random one since they are all uninformative. I get another pop up, with this black 'Time to next event' thing. Again what are those controls meant to achieve. Again, if I click on any links on that window I get another pop up all totally uninformative, why? because from the beginning I'm on a random event because I have no way of knowing if any of the events actually have anything as I'm also in a pop up porn site without the porn. If you are going to have a list of events give moving thumbnails so that you can visually scan and catch the action in the event and delete the false ones.
So I have 100 events of crows’ shng on my driveway and only one of somebody stealing from my mailbox. How do I find the one I need. The crows have already triggered the event. I have 100 stills of crows. Even in record, find the action in an event of 10 minute duration each.

7 - Video I'm not too sure about this comment.
why do I have to generate a video? That may explain why those pop ups are useless the whole thing is stills more stills and variation of stills, O' did I mention stills.. A video should be generated from all the stills, if anything give the user choice of options, Video, Stills, thumbnail stills generated in a video to quickly select an actual event, there are settings for everything else but not the necessary.
But! I noticed that if I generate a video for events then load them onto VLC in pause I can then drag the mouse and cycle through events looking for an action in an event 1000 times faster than using ZM. Not practical but shows me ZM’s failings especially when it seems you can only generate one event at a time.
Again I'm not too sure about this comment.

8 - Lets try it!
I live across from a school and on pick up there is a kid that sometimes runs to my mail box and likes to jump of it. Doesn't bother me, so I'll use him as the example, as an action within an event motion capture. Now the zones I set up to catch part of the street so cars would also trigger an event. A lot of events were captured but can I find the event with the kid jumping? no. Did he do it? I don't know for you can't quickly review events visually to find the one amongst a hundred or so. Not only that but you are looking for one action within a larger recorded event amongst 10's if not hundreds of events. A montage of moving thumbnails would quickly allow you to pick up the event needed.
It's dark now so my test USB camera can't see anything so I clicked on the camera and it gives me a list of events underneath. What's the point, it provides zero visual event information.

9 - Date quirk
The camera view displays the date as 16/03/16 Great, in Au that's how we read it. In the events lists of pop ups it's either displayed as 2016-03-16 or 03/16. It should be the same across all for quick subconscious visual search/reference. Note, I have not changed any date settings this is how it appears from install.

10- A File Browser
You have links and pop ups for everything. How about a file browser to access the system. In record my disk is filling up as such It would be nice to click on Disk, be presented with the home folder for example then folder for each camera broken down by Year/Month/Day/ etc... though I don't know how the data base works. Though being able to do a quick clean up would be handy.

11 – CPU Bug/Quirk
A. Local viewing sends CPU to Max cycling. I changed to just continuous record since it can't do what I need and PC prods alone viewing from Mint PC, next day I opened up a Firefox window in the lbunutu/ZM server and the CPU started cycling, I only know this due to the fan going nuts. I closed the servers’ Firefox windows and the CPU went down.
B. I opened Firefox 45.0 on Mint and loaded ZM no CPU rise. Average load on ZM local and remote states around 2 even with cpu jump. lbuntu/ZM Firefox 44.02 with Canonical 1 (whatever that is) Select on local > Montage > click on a camera > pop up > select event pop up. The more pop ups the higher the cpu load goes. Rebooted same result. Didn’t pursue it to see if it is a Firefox 44.02 issue.

12 - Bug/Quirk - Remote static
Remote static view on loss of server or camera. I noticed that if I have remote view say in montage and I reboot the server the images stay even if I unplug my USB camera, no indication of loss of server or cameras. Even the console stays static. That's not good.
By default any loss should be apparent on the screen. Assuming UPS on the server, if ZM doesn't it should be able to detect on UPS and send an email as well. Even possibly a browser plug-in to communicate with the server in the event of a failure/loss.

13 – Live Indication
ZM seems to provide a lot of pop ups and selections. A simple indication of 'Live' or something obvious that moves on the top right hand of each camera popup/montage/cycle would tell the user exactly where he/she is in the world of pop ups or just the montage. Referencing the time is not practical especially in high resolution monitors or having to cross reference the time on a pop up with the system time when traversing through an event.
Here's an example: Whilst reviewing my literary skills on this I've had the camera popup window on another monitor. I just noticed that for the past half hour or so it's been frozen. Why? I don't know? I must have clicked one of those controls. Had to click on the camera on the console again to bring up the fresh popup rather than messing around to see how I caused it yet alone if what I'm looking at is live or delayed. Yes, it’s operator error, but imagine you have your server in the basement and you monitor from work on a spare monitor. You lost your server early in the day and all day you have been looking at still images whilst your house gets ransacked.

You would think this is the end?
As an assumed rational person, I quit, as a masochist, it took me so long to get to this stage that I will persist up to the point where I know I'll never revisit zm again. If I'm not wrong, then my simple basic/common requirements will most likely never be introduced yet alone read by those that matter.
Having played with Linux on and off for the past 15 years I understand that it specifically goes out of its way to make things difficult in a false sense of elitism, but if you go to the time and effort to provide us with your work which I would pay/Donate too, then instead of making every bit and byte incomprehensibly configurable ask an average person whom knows their way around programs to install it/configure it and use it on their generic pc not yours, as also without instructions from someone who knows. If they can't then something is wrong yet alone in an hour to get to the basics. Software should draw you in to discover it not fight you all the way. Pay someone of the street a few bucks and see if they can get things going on their PC.

If confusion through complexity is the business model to gain paying clients then you may want think again. Possibly look at Freenas. I have been using Freenas for years and it's 10 fold more complex than ZM, yet it works and it's intuitive. They also have a Business side and the freeware side, from my perspective it works. You may also look at their model of providing a full operating system that can be managed by either a GUI remotely or console local and remote, add disks removed disks whatever, all with FreeBSD as the base.

My Scores
a) Installation success - 0/10 - Lost time, days. It would be interesting to see actual ZM users to downloads ratio.
b) Pre-built installation lbuntu/ZM - 9/10 - good but couldn't get wifi to connect to Internet. Local LAN only. It's minor shortfalls are my failings, not interested chasing Wifi driver. In this testing of ZM makes no difference.
c) ZM Camera detection - 10/10 - Picked my 10 + year old USB camera without issues and no drivers needed.
d) ZM Console - 6/10 - could do with live camera thumbnails and area grouping. Edit button is useless, it only brings up the camera settings of which there is already a link + there are many more settings for a camera, it needs grouping. Note: I did see a grouping window but I don't know for I only have one camera at the moment. They really need to rework how settings are handled. The window developer must really love pop ups. If he/she doesn't, they should go work for a porn site.
e) ZM functionality - 1/10 - One of the developers must work for a porn site - loves the pop ups and links.
f) ZM User Friendliness - 1/10 - There is none. They must be trying to impress businesses through confusion and complexity..
g) ZM Practicality - 0/10 - Lots of information and settings but not practical, does nothing I need. Go find an action in 100's of events. I've never seen Professional large scale surveillance software but it can't be as unintuitive and impractical as ZM.
h) ZM User familiarity after weeks of non use to find an action in an event. -0/10- Will always have to re-learn it. I can't find an action in an event now!
i) Do I consider ZM professional - It looks professional but No - If it's geared towards that arena then its complexity is intentional for fishing paid assistance, Fair enough, everybody pays bills. But if it's not practical or functional they probably lose 99% of would be clients and 99.9% percent of would be home users. I've spent days on it and can't justify the time. It's the kind of software you supply a customer you want to screw in a maintenance contract and hope you can extract the information when S** hits the fan, for your customer will never be able to. Charge by the hour would be the motto.
j) Does it meet any of my simplistic requirements - Only 1 but see (2 - Zones) above, as it makes it impractical, for you can waste time re-trying settings already tried. Especially without a live view or update on changes.
k) If it does and I'm to ignorant to know would it be viable to actually use it- No - It's a time consumer, not user friendly.
l) Would I install it or recommend it for family or friends - No - it would be abandoned quickly. Dummy cameras would be more cost effective or use alternative like the software that comes with Chinese cameras or Contacam on a Windows PC.
m) As it is would I Donate to the cause - no - I would rather pay for user friendly/practical software.
n) Would I Use it and pay for assistance - no - I would never get that far.
o) If It came as an embedded kit with cameras would I keep it not knowing what I know - No - It's short falls would be apparent quickly and I would return it and buy a different kit with different software.

Why am I still on this?
Note: In a windows machine at other premises I used to use Contacam, it is also freeware and open source I think. I have no affiliation or other with the developer/s but it is a program that the ZM developers seriously need view and to contact the developer and ask for assistance or permission to use/collaborate in it's conventions, and since Contacam is not ported to Linux there should be no conflict. ContaCam may be considered by some as simplistic but it walks all over ZM, not in its scale I suppose, but in it's out of the box functionality and practicality. In comparison to ZM I would give ContaCam from memory a 10/10 and ZM a 1/10 and that's only for effort. See its thumbnail montage of events, You can quickly pick out an action in an event in a browser packed of recorded events streaming. The USB camera used for CC is the same one used in ZM.

It annoys me that I have to abandon ZM after all the trouble to get here. If I'm wrong could somebody please correct me on how to do what I need.

I am actually for ZM, dedicated server based surveillance but like most Linux things there seems to be so much focus on configuration and manipulation that user friendliness is nowhere to be found, just like users for Linux, Only 1.2% of all Operating systems are Linux (not counting servers). So for an average person to install set and run then maintain a non gui server or for non initiated a Linux desktop then try and install and configure ZM with its zero intuitiveness before they can see if it's a viable tool. Good luck. Though not ZM even lbuntu/ZM didn’t come with a USB WiFi driver, average Joe downloads and installs lbunutu/ZM ISO and can’t connect. Try and get average Joe to know what’s wrong and do a manual install on Linux without internet in a wifi house. Who’s he/she going to blame?

I'm going to clone it now and use the PC for something else. I'll keep the clone in case the responses to this prove that I'm totally wrong and show me the light.

Well, if you got this far
The masochist in me had another two attempts at install on Mint 17.3 (Why Mint? Because it works) I got ZM up and running fixing a few errors along the way, only took about 4 hours, however, when it came to the camera showing an image/stream I got nothing just the controls and events links. And so, I'm broken with these two log errors I couldn't fix: "socket_sendto ( /var/run/zm/zms-110778s.soc ) failed: No such file or directory" and "getStreamCmdResponse stream error: socket_sendto (var/run/zm/zms-110778s.sock ) failed: No such file or directory - checkStreamForErrors()" And though I have no image, if I export an event I get the footage...

Oddly enough I also get the 'low Bandwidth' on the local machine now? So with the added bonus that one day I may have to do this all over again in a reinstall or if an update breaks things, yet it also doesn't seem to what I need it to. No, ZM I bow in defeat, you have won.

For the curious I did Mint 17.3 attempt twice, First install lamp in its parts and second was in a complete automated lamp install. In both cases I used the zoneminder.com documentation for Ubuntu 14.04 zoneminder install.

I’m Confused
What I don't understand is that most Linux files systems are same. Now if as lamp you have a one line install why can't zoneminder.
Here's an example:
1. You have 10 different distros installed on 10 generic PCs,
2. then install one liner LAMP on those 10 PC's "sudo apt-get install lamp-server^"
3. Install ZM on those PC's
4. Sort out the quirks, so 10 different distros on 10 different pcs with ZM working.
5. Create a script for one line install that will correct any conflicts.

I'm simplistic but if LAMP is installed in its defaults and ZM will be a dedicated system as Lamp won't install if already installed so ZM works with that, defaults.

Now even though my errors may have been/are LAMP/ZM associated they are all default installs. ZM is 100% dependant on it which means it has to correct its quirks. Why should ZM do that?

1. It's 100% dependant on LAMP
2. The more PC's ZM is installed on the greater the chances for a higher income stream. From my perspective if Linux is running on the PC then LAMP & ZM should have no issues with generic default installs. All I should worry about is Passwords, taken care on the install, cameras, settings and bugs.

Install to first camera view shouldn't take more than 20 minutes and not days (I am a masochist).

I’m Done.
Now if ZM actually did what I needed and I used it (Actually installed/worked) when a major upgrade is done an unobtrusive pop up for the admin could come up and request a casual donation through common payment schemes with a run once reminder. Foreigners would be the most reluctant due to exchange rates and credit card foreign exchange charges. But say an average of $3.00 USD over 100000 users ($300K) from non business users every 6 to 12 months, not much, but would you knock it back? So If I gave up after days, imagine how many others gave up just after an hour or so.

Quickie - Income stream?
ZM secure cloud based mirrored storage for last 24 hours or more. Say $40 per annum. My server mirrors it’s self with the ZM cloud. ZM cloud securely transfers mirrors holds the events, Nice app by ZM to seamlessly use the cloud. House destroyed/Server destroyed, events are safe.
Professional? Real estate agent/owner sets up quick camera with direct internet access to ZM cloud based, now dozens of vacant properties can be monitored in one montage.

Pay to download? Have ZM with 3 camera capable then if the user wants more a paid download will give them access to ZM unlimited. $10 for three year downloads

I want 10% of these ideas :D

But ZM has to work, be user friendly and intuitive and in my opinion, not in its current state.
The irony is that the time that I spent on ZM from the beginning if I had say gone to work being paid an hourly rate and used that money I could have bought a fully functional multi IP camera kit worth over 1K with TB hdd. So who's the clever boy then?

Like I said, I hope I'm wrong but I keep these type of notes to remind me in years to come if I revisit something even though I have gone over the top on this one...about 9 and 1/2 pages over.

Yes, all things are a work in progress, including me.

Finally, here is a fantasy > I have a 30" screen, now on that screen top to bottom on the console I could fit 60 odd cameras. So reduce that to 20 and under each camera along the length I have a series of events displayed as moving thumbnails gifs with arrows on either side for each camera so I can scroll forward or backyards on events. I could literally scroll/see all the events for each camera at once on the screen. Find the one I want > click on it > review it > save it/mail it etc... No muss no fuss. In a few minutes I could review an entire day of events for the entire cluster. On holidays? Connect your device to the hotels TV and same thing, Instead of: Sorry dear I still have 4296 events to review to prove our dog didn’t eat the neighbours’ cat, or did!
User avatar
asker
Posts: 1553
Joined: Sun Mar 01, 2015 12:12 pm

Re: ZM 1.29.0 My Opinion review bugs quirks.

Post by asker »

Hey so the fact that you posted such a long post means you care.

I'm sure the core developers care too and I know they are super busy improving the product in their free time (you did know they are volunteers right? The bounty source contribs are very small compared to the work that even one of them puts in). ZM works and works very well - many of us use it for production systems both at home and large enterprises. I know its not easy though. Looks like it hasn't worked for you so far.

I can guarantee you the core devs want to engage with you but as long as you are willing to:

a) Compress your post into maybe 10 top things you'd like improved

b) Provide concrete inputs into why things did not work for you with the easy install guide - - your post is so long its hard to read and figure out which points are valid points and which points relate to you not following instructions.

c) Delete stuff that is completely irrelevant - I think you refer to them as sarcasm in your post. Its sort of sarcasm and rambling rolled into one.

d) If at all possible ,help this small team out by contributing - even cleaning up installation documents as a start is a huge help

(I'm not a core developer)

thanks
I no longer work on zmNinja, zmeventnotification, pyzm or mlapi. I may respond on occasion based on my available time/interest.

Please read before posting:
How to set up logging properly
How to troubleshoot and report - ES
How to troubleshoot and report - zmNinja
ES docs
zmNinja docs
bbunge
Posts: 2930
Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2012 11:40 am
Location: Pennsylvania

Re: ZM 1.29.0 My Opinion review bugs quirks.

Post by bbunge »

I guess I should be happy that you gave the Lubuntu/ZM setup I did a 9/10. Just to let you know that I'm not entirely pleased with the effort and will be trying again with the Ubuntu 16.04 which will be released in a few weeks (how to's for 16.04 are on the WIKI now). The WIKI is the place to get the latest instructions for this effort.

Sorry you had issues with the "easy" instructions. I try to stand back and write them for the Linux newbie to do them. I try to not get too complicated but several other folks have mentioned problems lately. I suspect the problem is setting up Linux in the first place, which, is something that is covered in great detail elsewhere. Am I assuming too much? Do I need to do an instruction for dummies? Yes, setting up cameras can be a pain and every type has its quirks. (one of mine is to use PAL-B for USB cameras).
Sorry, it has been along day with problems that were not solved.. The good thing is my CentOS 7 with ZM 1.29.0 and 17 cameras is perking along just fine at 90% (30 days recording - 1 TB drive) disk capacity (six of the cameras are on mocord the rest modect). Oh, did you try Timeline to review your Zoneminder day?
Lost19
Posts: 6
Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2016 4:41 am

Re: ZM 1.29.0 My Opinion review bugs quirks.

Post by Lost19 »

asker wrote:Hey so the fact that you posted such a long post means you care.
I think I mentioned the word masochist several times :mrgreen:
asker wrote:I'm sure the core developers care too and I know they are super busy improving the product in their free time (you did know they are volunteers right? The bounty source contribs are very small compared to the work that even one of them puts in). ZM works and works very well - many of us use it for production systems both at home and large enterprises. I know its not easy though.
I'm not disputing or condeming it, I'm sure I said I appreciate their work but sometimes we have stop and look at the road behind us.
asker wrote:a) Compress your post into maybe 10 top things you'd like improved
It's not things I would like improved. It didn't work for me nor do I think it can do what I need which may take years to introduce. It's a view of Joe Schmucks encounter.
asker wrote:b) Provide concrete inputs into why things did not work for you with the easy install guide - - your post is so long its hard to read and figure out which points are valid points and which points relate to you not following instructions.
I did say it got out of hand :mrgreen: I don't know if you managed to get through it but in general that's the whole point. I'm doing a simple generic default install on the recommeded instructions. The only deviation was trying it on Mint.
asker wrote:d) If at all possible ,help this small team out by contributing - even cleaning up installation documents as a start is a huge help


How can one help when after 5 odd attempts I end up with 0 success. My best contribution is being Joe Schmuk of the street who in this case had a few days to spare to try it out and giving my opinion.
many of us use it for production systems both at home and large enterprises


With the above quote youre the best person for that:

1 - Create a step by step install on say a Desktop (Mint 17.x) for average individual, All Generic Defaults from downloading Mint to accessing ZM (idiot proof) Include your PC's hardware as well.
2 - Add two cameras such as a USB camera and or an IP camera, simple to get going.
3 - Once you have the instructions for a working model ask in the forum or other for volunteers to test your instructions on their generic PC's . If all goes well you will have a tested tried and true installation guide with independant confirmation plus possible resolutions to errors.
4 - Request from ZM to have it included in their documentation page as a recomended known working model for installation from begining to end. This way it won't get lost amongst the 10's of other easy guides.

I can't do any of that for I couldn't get it to work other than the lbuntu version.

Thanks for your response. It is appreciated.
Lost19
Posts: 6
Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2016 4:41 am

Re: ZM 1.29.0 My Opinion review bugs quirks.

Post by Lost19 »

bbunge wrote:I guess I should be happy that you gave the Lubuntu/ZM setup I did a 9/10. Just to let you know that I'm not entirely pleased with the effort and will be trying again with the Ubuntu 16.04 which will be released in a few weeks (how to's for 16.04 are on the WIKI now). The WIKI is the place to get the latest instructions for this effort.
For me you were a life saver. For those who read my post, not so much. You should be pleased for it worked and though I have put ZM out of my mind now and if you don't mind I'll give a couple of suggestions that I remember if you are going to remaster a new version.

1- Include a software/driver manager for download and installs. I had to flush the network a few times to get it to pick up my card, this way users can download additional packages/drivers easily. Even a generic wifi driver if there is such a thing.
2 - I had to use the terminal a few times and some instructions pointed at using vim I think and or a text editor. I don't remember Lubuntu/Zm having them. Luckily in my case I always use 'nano' which was in there. So a text editor that you can root would be good.

I don't remember much for I kept trying to see if ZM could do what I needed but the above 2 should give Lubuntu/ZM a lot more versatility.
Sorry you had issues with the "easy" instructions. I try to stand back and write them for the Linux newbie to do them. I try to not get too complicated but several other folks have mentioned problems lately. I suspect the problem is setting up Linux in the first place, which, is something that is covered in great detail elsewhere. Am I assuming too much? Do I need to do an instruction for dummies?
In the previous post I suggested such a dummies install guide and how to prove it. But non the less, I don't think it's Linux or LAMP or ZM faults it's to many bits and pieces that have to fit together. Example on my last attempt and with past experience gained: I have a Mint desktop fully working, I installed LAMP without issues, I installed ZM with out issues but when it came to streaming I had no image and got errors in the log (the last two errors that broke me)
Yes, setting up cameras can be a pain and every type has its quirks. (one of mine is to use PAL-B for USB cameras).
Sorry, it has been along day with problems that were not solved..
The camera was no issue.
The good thing is my CentOS 7 with ZM 1.29.0 and 17 cameras is perking along just fine at 90% (30 days recording - 1 TB drive) disk capacity (six of the cameras are on mocord the rest modect).
Excellent
Oh, did you try Timeline to review your Zoneminder day?
Are you being sarcastic :mrgreen: I couldn't review anything, the Timeline didn't work for morecord, I assume to short which is one reason I need + and - 10 or so seconds added to motion record amongs other things.

For the time being I have installed ContaCam instead, took 5 minutes. Setting up live zones with instant feed back and Motion record pre and post timed works for me, as selecting the camera on the browser then displaying all the motion recorded segments in moving images.

I also came accross an Aliexpress special they were having. I ordered an 8 channel NVR with 4 x 720p outdoor IP cameras including cat 5 and a POE switch for $160 USD. The idea of an NVR rather than a PC for home I think is best. Worst case scenario I have 4 cameras I needed anyway.

Thanks for your response and be happy with your Lubuntu/ZM, I wish I had found it first.
thermionic
Posts: 16
Joined: Wed Mar 16, 2016 9:54 pm

Re: ZM 1.29.0 My Opinion review bugs quirks.

Post by thermionic »

Please do not suggest using a Desktop OS to install on.

As soon as you go GUI, you add an additional layer of complexity, and you're "stealing" CPU cycles for the GUI

IMHO, once the initial OS install has been completed, all further config should be done in a SSH session.

Perhaps it would be worthwhile to suggest that the first time you install ZM it is done in a virtual environment such as Hyper-V, VMware, XenServer or even VirtualBox, all of which have supported "hardware" out of the box with modern Linux distros for at least ~2 years. The performance might not be as good, but people would not be struggling with network issues that have no relation to the ZM install.
Lost19
Posts: 6
Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2016 4:41 am

Re: ZM 1.29.0 My Opinion review bugs quirks.

Post by Lost19 »

thermionic wrote:Please do not suggest using a Desktop OS to install on.

As soon as you go GUI, you add an additional layer of complexity, and you're "stealing" CPU cycles for the GUI
This is what I don't get, a GUI even if it's not used is far more inviting to the non initiated than a black screen with a blinking curser. CPU cycles? I'm on windows 7 now and it's using <2% cpu on an old dual core 2.6GHz.
IMHO, once the initial OS install has been completed, all further config should be done in a SSH session.
That's fine, but my whole premis is about Joe schmuck, you have to get there first. Ask a guy who has a family and limited time to learn and set it up. Poor example but, ask the guy to install another HDD on ZM server, format it and get it to auto mount on boot via a shell. I can do that on Mint in 5 minutes without opening a terminal, yet alone spend time finding and trialing commands to use. One of the greatest steps forward for linux was a GUI install.
Perhaps it would be worthwhile to suggest that the first time you install ZM it is done in a virtual environment such as Hyper-V, VMware, XenServer or even VirtualBox, all of which have supported "hardware" out of the box with modern Linux distros for at least ~2 years. The performance might not be as good, but people would not be struggling with network issues that have no relation to the ZM install.
IMHO, this is self defeating with your above posts. You are worried about CPU Cycles and drag on the system with layers of complexity.
Lets say KVM, a user would still possibly need to know to download and install the GUI, He/She will need to change things. Even VirtualBox they will probably need to find out about installing the extension pack and guest additions when things don't work or aren't recognised. Networks don't always work out of the box.

To me there has to be a simpler more effective way than the current, and in general speaking about Desktops, they have enough to get you of the ground for stage 2, LAMP.
rockedge
Posts: 1173
Joined: Fri Apr 04, 2014 1:46 pm
Location: Connecticut,USA

Re: ZM 1.29.0 My Opinion review bugs quirks.

Post by rockedge »

I have ZoneMinder 1.29.0 running in Puppy Linux Tahr 6.0.5 CE as the OS. Runs at 220 megs of RAM. Works all day all night for months at a time with no reboot on machines like a Dell 2400 from 2005. I remastered the OS with a complete LAMP phpmyadmin and zoneminder which is configured and starts on boot into an .ISO which can be installed to USB stick or drive, burned to CD/DVD or installed directly to HDD as a frugal install or full install.

I have had good luck with ZoneMinder on several different Ubuntu based Puppy Linux distros. Built from source or installed as a package from the iconner PPA. Yes it took some work to tweak the procedure and configuration but it resulted in a very reliable ZoneMinder system that I enabled X10 event activation and control. Using a USB CM19a Transceiver to communicate with remote motion detectors to ensure detection in the dark and activate an event and start recording using zmTrigger.pl. This method frees up a lot of CPU cycles making using old hardware a success.
thermionic
Posts: 16
Joined: Wed Mar 16, 2016 9:54 pm

Re: ZM 1.29.0 My Opinion review bugs quirks.

Post by thermionic »

I suggested using a VM for very specific reasons, perhaps you missed them.

using a VM means that the boot is faster than on bare metal, the hardware is abstracted, and you can use snapshots to save the VM state at critical points, all of these can make an install simpler, which while you are learning how to do something new can save time.

If you do everything in SSH, it is easily repeatable, if you do everything in a GUI, it is much harder to be repeatable.

Over the course of a couple of hours I did three ZM installs, it sounds as if your installs took longer, perhaps if you had something that was easily repeatable, it would have taken you less time.

As everyone else did, I started out with no experience of Linux, granted that was some time ago, but learning things takes time, if one takes short cuts, one's understanding is not as good, and then if/when an issue occurs, reaching a resolution is not as simple. I spent my early career fixing problems that were mostly created by other people, and it is remarkably obvious across any work that requires a learnt skill.

Overall you seem to be complaining that ZM is not as easy to setup as a commercial DVR/NVR. The beauty of open source is that YOU can improve it, and the best way to improve it is to work on it. Working on the documentation is always a good place to start, think about working in a Dojo.
bbunge
Posts: 2930
Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2012 11:40 am
Location: Pennsylvania

Re: ZM 1.29.0 My Opinion review bugs quirks.

Post by bbunge »

thermionic wrote:Please do not suggest using a Desktop OS to install on.

As soon as you go GUI, you add an additional layer of complexity, and you're "stealing" CPU cycles for the GUI

IMHO, once the initial OS install has been completed, all further config should be done in a SSH session.

Perhaps it would be worthwhile to suggest that the first time you install ZM it is done in a virtual environment such as Hyper-V, VMware, XenServer or even VirtualBox, all of which have supported "hardware" out of the box with modern Linux distros for at least ~2 years. The performance might not be as good, but people would not be struggling with network issues that have no relation to the ZM install.

And why not install on a desktop system? I have a system in a sports complex in the middle of a big field with no internet (yet). Lubuntu is just the ticket for a single, stand alone system with four cameras.

As for your other comment about using a VM and having fewer network "issues" I quote the famous Col. Sherman Potter "Horse feathers!"
thermionic
Posts: 16
Joined: Wed Mar 16, 2016 9:54 pm

Re: ZM 1.29.0 My Opinion review bugs quirks.

Post by thermionic »

I'm not suggesting using a VM for production, I'm suggesting using a VM for gaining familiarity.

maybe its just my grizzled years, but I expect to reinstall/reconfigure at least twice when installing from publicly available install documentation before putting into production.
SteveGilvarry
Posts: 494
Joined: Sun Jun 29, 2014 1:12 pm
Location: Melbourne, AU

Re: ZM 1.29.0 My Opinion review bugs quirks.

Post by SteveGilvarry »

Thank you for taking the time to document your concerns. The masochist in me tries to fix this sort of stuff, none of this is really news to anyone, but nice to have some specific feedback on shit that annoyed you as opposed to just general complaints.
Some people don't believe bbunge's guides work, so I did an install video of 14.04 version. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N5VqQ7KuEE0
Sounds like your Ubuntu issues were more OS and drivers, in which case we can't take credit for that.

Post install Wizard is on the list, possibly even started. But some processes are limitations of the various distros and camera options that everyone expects ZM to just install and run on. I got the feeling that you were not that comfortable with command line interface like Terminal? This is a server application so it leans much more in the direction of a GUI-less installation

GUI also needs a complete rebuild, a couple of false starts on this in recent years but hopefully 2016 is the year for a complete new one.

Should you completely lose your mind feel free to contribute some fixes or documentation. Anyone can learn, I started with just documentation and little stuff around the edges, and there is not really enough resources on the project to fix everything you listed.

Steve
Production Zoneminder 1.37.x (Living dangerously)
Random Selection of Cameras (Dahua and Hikvision)
Lost19
Posts: 6
Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2016 4:41 am

Re: ZM 1.29.0 My Opinion review bugs quirks.

Post by Lost19 »

SteveGilvarry wrote:Thank you for taking the time to document your concerns. The masochist in me tries to fix this sort of stuff, none of this is really news to anyone, but nice to have some specific feedback on shit that annoyed you as opposed to just general complaints.
I admire your knowledgy but pity the fact that you have to think of every, if, and or not and its effects on other lines of code.
Some people don't believe bbunge's guides work, so I did an install video of 14.04 version. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N5VqQ7KuEE0
It is appreciated but this is what worries me. Another install guide. That's why I suggested in one of the above posts to get a few testers to confirm it's viability and then have ZM admin give it an official tag or possibly make it a stick post in the forum guides?
Sounds like your Ubuntu issues were more OS and drivers, in which case we can't take credit for that.
Those problems I overcame and I don't pin ZM for it, for at the end it was ZM that killed me. It was there as an example of the difficulty that can be faced by an average Joe.
Post install Wizard is on the list, possibly even started. But some processes are limitations of the various distros and camera options that everyone expects ZM to just install and run on. I got the feeling that you were not that comfortable with command line interface like Terminal? This is a server application so it leans much more in the direction of a GUI-less installation
Sorry Steve, wrong. I actually like the terminal. The overal concept is that there are to many bits and pieces of which any one of them can break and cause hours of searching with no success.

You mention GUI-less installation. That's fine, if your target base is a select few otherwise you need to start seeing things from Joe schmuks point of view. You can actually have both, I don't know what the license conditions are but take Freenas for example, consoleish based install then everything is remotely browser managed, the pc itself is headless. All I had to worry about was hardware.
GUI also needs a complete rebuild, a couple of false starts on this in recent years but hopefully 2016 is the year for a complete new one.
Complete rebuilds rarely if ever happen, More streamlineing I would say. Without ticking of the existing user base. I know I talk alot but here is a simple example of finding 'Timeline' for you.

In my comment I mention the timeline, I now know it's experimental as it was also mentioned by bbunge so I thought I would try it again since I have constant record and haven't looked at ZM in a week.

I couldn't find it (timeline) I clicked on USB camera and every link from it and nope. Went to ZM site all I found was FAQ with no info. Found it! it's linked from events on the top right hand corner but it still didn't do anything. It's too complex to find an action in an event no matter what you click on and I just got static images. If timeline is designed to review events and is the only quick way then it should be in your face apart from actuall working :D .

Anyway, Look at this, one click on a camera gives me the events in motion. http://www.contaware.com/home-cam.html As an example looking at the seventh moving thumbnail say he steels something from the shelf. Less than two seconds try and find that in ZM in less a minute..
Should you completely lose your mind feel free to contribute some fixes or documentation. Anyone can learn, I started with just documentation and little stuff around the edges, and there is not really enough resources on the project to fix everything you listed.
In all honesty Steve like every other human on the planet we all like to give our "opinion" and love to do so :roll: as well as help but it dosen't seem to do any of the things I need it to so I can't use it.
oops
Posts: 9
Joined: Sat Nov 28, 2015 12:13 am

Re: ZM 1.29.0 My Opinion review bugs quirks.

Post by oops »

Lost-- I spent about 3 months time trying to get a ZM system up and running and I was a Linux user for about 7 years but I too was lost. And frustrated. And I finally gave up and went and bought a 8 port generic Chinese DVR / NVR. Then I spent about a month or so learning how to set up alarm zones and port forwarding and DDNS and static IPs and SMTP and POP and a bunch of other stuff for the DVR/NVR. The big lesson I learned was that it ain't easy-none of it is easy for a newbie. I always thought I was a fairly intelligent, college educated geeky kind of guy, but setting up a security camera system by myself was difficult and time consuming. The DVR/NVR I bought required Windows and I didn't like having to go back to using Windows just to monitor and manage my cameras and DVR remotely. Hate Windows. So I went back to the Zoneminder and the second time it took me a month or so to get a system up and running and to see my first camera image. A year later I have a 12 camera system running and I can easily expand it to 24 or 32 cameras if I want. Zoneminder has so many more advantages than an off the shelf security system, it can be scaled up and has so many options that you can get lost trying to configure the system to exactly meet your needs. Easy and convenient it ain't. But it's worth the effort. And I don't have to pay Microsoft to use it. I'm using a mix of IP cameras, old androids, analog box cameras, night vision bullet cameras and tiny pinhole hidden cams on a quad core xp4600 work station with 4GB RAM and 250GB Hard Drive with some cameras connected by WiFi and some ethernet wired and it all just works.

I found this person's blog and it worked for me https yada yada bkjaya dot wordpress dot com/ He has several very useful guides for Zoneminder installs and they just work every time.

The developers are doing an outstanding job pushing Zoneminder forward and it keeps getting better and better. These guys (and gals ?) could commercially package and sell Zoneminder. But they don't. They give it away for free. They deserve a big hug (and donations), not criticism because it ain't the way you want it to be. It'll get there.
bbunge
Posts: 2930
Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2012 11:40 am
Location: Pennsylvania

Re: ZM 1.29.0 My Opinion review bugs quirks.

Post by bbunge »

oops wrote:Lost-- I spent about 3 months time trying to get a ZM system up and running and I was a Linux user for about 7 years but I too was lost. And frustrated. And I finally gave up and went and bought a 8 port generic Chinese DVR / NVR. Then I spent about a month or so learning how to set up alarm zones and port forwarding and DDNS and static IPs and SMTP and POP and a bunch of other stuff for the DVR/NVR. The big lesson I learned was that it ain't easy-none of it is easy for a newbie. I always thought I was a fairly intelligent, college educated geeky kind of guy, but setting up a security camera system by myself was difficult and time consuming. The DVR/NVR I bought required Windows and I didn't like having to go back to using Windows just to monitor and manage my cameras and DVR remotely. Hate Windows. So I went back to the Zoneminder and the second time it took me a month or so to get a system up and running and to see my first camera image. A year later I have a 12 camera system running and I can easily expand it to 24 or 32 cameras if I want. Zoneminder has so many more advantages than an off the shelf security system, it can be scaled up and has so many options that you can get lost trying to configure the system to exactly meet your needs. Easy and convenient it ain't. But it's worth the effort. And I don't have to pay Microsoft to use it. I'm using a mix of IP cameras, old androids, analog box cameras, night vision bullet cameras and tiny pinhole hidden cams on a quad core xp4600 work station with 4GB RAM and 250GB Hard Drive with some cameras connected by WiFi and some ethernet wired and it all just works.

I found this person's blog and it worked for me https yada yada bkjaya dot wordpress dot com/ He has several very useful guides for Zoneminder installs and they just work every time.

The developers are doing an outstanding job pushing Zoneminder forward and it keeps getting better and better. These guys (and gals ?) could commercially package and sell Zoneminder. But they don't. They give it away for free. They deserve a big hug (and donations), not criticism because it ain't the way you want it to be. It'll get there.
The web site you quote, (https://bkjaya.wordpress.com/) has mostly copied the work of others from the Zoneminder WIKI. While I should be miffed that someone has used my work without acknowledgement, I am content that you were able to find what you needed to get Zoneminder working. Yes, this Linux/Zoneminder is not for the faint of heart and while I have been a computer "professional" since the days of DOS I am continually learning and learning from others (Google is my friend). And If I "borrow" a procedure I sure try to give credit where credit is due!!!

bb
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